Jots with dots 10/30

White guys and catcalling or whatever this is….

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/10/29/catcalling_video_hollaback_s_look_at_street_harassment_in_nyc_edited_out.html

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120040/there-should-be-more-white-men-viral-street-harassment-video

For a guy like me, ie, a middle aged white guy, this a lose / lose argument to pursuit.  But we’re talking amongst ourselves here, and I am not one to be cowed by the possibility of being called a bigot…because I‘m not a bigot, and I certainly have no great adoration for my own ethnicity.  I live in the real world, and I’m ‘street’ enough to know that the reason black and latino men are overrepresented in this video is because white guys don’t typically act this way.  It’s outside of white guy social norms.   They didn’t get good footage of white guys because the frequency of occurrence wasn’t as high.  This lament about them being underrepresented is about something else, ie, the silly need for a proper villain in power / privilege / Marxist terms.

Said this a month ago when the race WI race seemed essentially tied.  Burke is a dilettante.  Is it realistic to have an expectation she could pull this out and defeat Walker?  No.  http://watchdog.org/179822/mary-burke-trek-sales/  If the race was that important, WI Dems, you might have wanted to put up a better candidate.

Madison Bumgarner:  There’s the elite baseball player, which most pros are.  Then there’s the elite, elite baseball player, who are better than all the other elite players.  I’m shocked he lost a game this year.  Key:  he doesn’t throw strikes that a guy can put the barrel of the bat on.

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12 thoughts on “Jots with dots 10/30

  1. pm1956

    1. Catcalling. look, they edited out the white guys–they admit this. Why? because those (white) examples didn’t make the point they wanted made because they were either unclear, poor quality, or not extreme enough. There simply isn’t enough data here to say anything else about this–white guys most certainly are not exonerated–just look at #gamergate for lots of examples of white guys acting horribly towards women.

    2. Burke was right–this is character assassination, score settling. Clearly she wasn’t fired (if she had been, she probably would have sued). Some old line guy at a family run company didn’t like it that she (an owner) got a better deal/promotion/raise than he did. This sort of crap happens all the time.

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/10/wednesday-midterms-what-you-missed.html

    3. Bumgarner was awesome. So was the entire 7 game series. Great baseball all around.

    Reply
    1. Erik Petersen Post author

      1 – to say they edited out the white guys because the examples weren’t extreme enough… kinda makes my point. We’re in PC / Maher territory here. I don’t think saying black or latino men are sometimes / often aggressive street pickup artists is any more inflammatory than saying they play basketball well or that Islam has a corrosive intolerance problem. It’s just how much truth people are willing to acknowledge without being called a bigot.

      Does this story lack for a caveat that white people sexually abuse children too, even though the there seems to be a problem in this community? http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-29803799

      2. She can call it a hatchet job, but Burke story seems well sourced and not particularly a product of the Walker campaign. She’s a weak candidate and she’ll lose.

      Reply
      1. pm1956

        No, it’s not just fear of being called a bigot–it is not making sweeping generalizations without adequate data (and, to an extent, people who ARE willing to make broad generalizations about a particular racial group without having data may well be exhibiting bigotry, or at least prejudice). Clearly this video is not proof of your claim. We know that it is not scientific (they admit that the data is not representative, because it is incomplete–further, it was not gathered in any sort of a randomized fashion, and the sampling is neither significant nor random nor representative).

        you could make a case for black men being better basketball players by comparing their represntation at various skill levels (NCAA D1, NBA, etc.) and comparing it to the total population, and you would then have data to support such a claim. You could also look at terrorist organizations active in the world, and try to figure out what percentage of them are Muslim based, and compare that to the general population to see if there is an over-representation of muslims in terrorism, and that would give you some data to make such an argument (to make a really good argument you’d probably need to do a lot more, but it would be a start).

        But what kind of data do you have to make such a claim about catcalls and harassment? And if you are just using anecdotes here, what about stories about women in Latin America or Italy, and the catcalls and harassment they suffer? Anecdotally, such things are supposed to be worse in those places. What does that do to your “theory”?

        Seriously, this is not a question of political correctness, it is a question of argumentation and data. you can’t justify sloppy thinking with countercharges of political correctness.

      2. Erik Petersen Post author

        I very much agree in principle you shouldn’t make sweeping generalizations without adequate data. But we don’t need data to discern every truth, and the inability to accept and recognize truth because there isn’t data is a bit obtuse / coy done in this case for the purposes of being PC.

        My wife is a liberal, my sister-in- law is a basically a granola communist who votes Democrat. They are both worldly enough, having spent time working downtown in their 20’s. Neither of them are bigots, quite the opposite, yet nor would they have any difficulty acknowledging the premise that black men, strangers, will come on aggressively on the streets in a way that ‘white guys’ typically do not. Fair to say they experienced it.

        I have been reading the comment threads on these stories at Slate and New Republic. There’s dozens or hundreds of liberals there who have weighed in, including many women, who are ostensibly not bigots and also have no difficulty acknowledging this premise. They find the necessity of a ‘white guys catcall also’ caveat as much an eye roller as I do, probably for the same reason.

        I very much have my doubts than an academic / empirical study has looked at the distribution of basketball players by race and come to the conclusion that ‘black players are better’, though it’s a conclusion that is both true and I think, benign. Still there’s not a proper way to express that truth in a PC context, so it is not in fact expressed. That’s a weakness in your demand for empiricism. Some things will not get studied because they conclusions are awkward and non-PC.

      3. pm1956

        1. Here is an academic study of race and basketball players:
        http://www.tidesport.org/RGRC/2013/2013_NBA_RGRC.pdf

        “…Using data from the 2012-2013 season, TIDES conducted an analysis of racial breakdowns of the players and coaches. In addition, the Report Card includes a racial and gender breakdown of management in the NBA league office and referees as wells as, at various levels within each NBA franchise such as top management, team senior administration, team professional administration, physicians, head trainers and broadcasters.”

        I don’t know that it says that black players are better (that isn’t the point of the study), but it clearly shows that black players are dominant in terms of numbers.

        “…African-Americans comprised 76.3 percent of all NBA players. Eighty-one percent of players were players of color.”

        pretty clear that African-Americans are over-represented in the NBA.

        You could probably find other academic studies if you went through the footnotes here:
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_NBA

        I think that your point about PC and what gets studied doesn’t really stand. In fact, i think that most of your points about PC don’t stand–you use that as a bogeyman term, an excuse for prejudice and sloppy thinking.

        Oh, as a white guy, i have seen plenty of white guy catcalls in my life. i promise you they exist. Catcalls and harassment are not racially determined. Again, see gamergate (I’d like to spare you this, but you have forced my hand…. 😉 ):

        http://deadspin.com/the-future-of-the-culture-wars-is-here-and-its-gamerga-1646145844 ; http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/stephen-colbert-explains-gamergate

      4. Erik Petersen Post author

        I do not make any points in defense of white guys. White guys are as creepy as anybody else.

        I do believe there are some nuances that can be acknowledged without worrying about who’s a bigot.

      5. pm1956

        1. She acknowledges that this is her perspective, and that her friends disagree about whether or not white guys catcall. She asserts that this is subjective, and warns of the dangers of taking anecdotes and personal experience and universalizing them into broad generalizations. She specifically acknowledges that her friends have been catcalled (is that a word?) by white men.,
        2. she also attempts to redefine the question, from one of just simple catcalling to a broader definition of harassment, and then makes catcalling just one form of harassment, and a milder one at that.
        3. She also attempts to substitute a different criteria to the racially defined criteria in the prior debate–she says that it isn’t a racial difference (the difference between white and black) that is significant, but rather a class difference, asserting that catcalling is the form of harassment that poor men (mostly black and latino) engage in, while the middle and upper class men (the higher you get the whiter they get) engage in other forms of harassment instead of catcalling.

        So clearly she doesn’t think saying that “white guys catcall also” is a pc way of covering your ass. she thinks it happens. but she thinks that isn’t very important, and that what rich white guys do is worse than catcalling.

        Sure, i think that this is a legitimate perspective. I do think that class differences are important in this area, and probably more important than racial differences in explaining this issue.

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